Another day, another AG explosion
Sep. 28th, 2004 12:14 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
selenayWhenever I have over 100 messages downloaded into my AG folder, it immediately tells me that they've found a new wank. I don't even have to look check the subject headers to guess that more than 70% will have the same (or a related) title. I just *know*. Normally I just mark it all as read without delving into it because I care about my blood pressure. This time, though, the subject under discussion was warnings, one of the fanfic things that I've put a fair amount of thought into.
I'm one of those unpopular people who would like to have warnings available on fic. If there is no warning on a fic then I assume I'm not going to find a graphic rape scene in the middle of it, none of my favourite characters are going to die and nobody will be tied up, whipped, cut and buggered in a frenzy of orgasmic (to the writer) pleasure. These situations are things that I would like to be warned for because I really, really, really don't want to read them.
This doesn't mean that I want a great, honking, flashing sign on the screen saying "Danger! Possible graphic sex and bad language ahead!" If the rating is NC-17 then I assume that the sex will be graphic, the language may not make Mary Whitehouse happy and there's a chance that there may be violence in the story. I am honestly not that stupid or naive. I use the rating as a gauge on what level the fic is likely to be at.
But there are certain things (like death fic, rape fic, heavy BDSM, graphic, lovingly described torture) that I would like to have warnings available for. Very early in my fanfic career I read an unmarked, unwarned rape fic that nearly put me off fanfic for life. It was a very nervous, hesitant Sel that returned to the archives a few weeks later and got sucked back into fandom.
This doesn't mean that you need to put the warnings right up there at the top of the fic. Make them available and give me the choice of checking them out or forging on without caring. On my review archive, I make warnings available and it's up to the user as to whether they click the link to check the warnings or just go straight to the fic. No author has ever complained - in fact, I've had a number of authors and readers compliment me on the diplomatic solution to a perennial fandom problem. Put the warnings into a little pop-up that I can choose to open, hide them by giving them the same colour text as the background so that I have to highlight them to read them - I don't care how you do it. Just make them available and let me choose whether I want to be spoiled or not. I will not be a happy bunny if I read a fic that had no warnings and find one of my major squicks lurking in the middle of the fic. I won't flame you, but I won't read anything you write again and, if the fic was on an archive, I'll probably avoid the archive completely. I will have nightmares afterwards, be grouchy for a few days and probably hide myself in a favourite old book (not fic) until I feel better. And my insistence on warnings will just increase.
I do think that some warnings are ridiculous. Honestly, I think I can guess that there will be graphic het sex scenes in an NC-17 fic that is marked het or has a het pairing in the summary information. I don't expect Jack to talk like a BBC newsreader in an NC-17 fic. Partner betrayal doesn't feel like something that really needs a warning. I've never seen the point in an 'intense situations' warning because that really doesn't mean anything. One person's drama is another person's angsty tortured soul. I would appreciate a warning for excessively graphic violence, but it won't kill me if you don't provide it. Warnings for rape, death, underage content, heavy BDSM and related areas are, IMO, necessary.
As wanky as the AG is, I think that this is one area that they've handled well. I like the idea of a part zero post with each fic containing the summary, rating etc. It gives people the option of checking this stuff out (because some people object to having more than just a fic title and author) or jumping straight in. The part zero also allows authors to put warnings in under spoiler space - it's up the reader whether they're spoiled or not. You can read as much or as little of the information as you want to because you don't need to page through it to get to the fic - the fic is in a separate post. To my mind, it's a good compromise.
The debate on the AG is currently waging around whether people should be allowed to put 'Warnings withheld' instead of listing the warnings. As long as people aren't using that instead of stating 'no warnings' then I have no problem with that. As Rauhnee has stated, only a small percentage of authors will probably take advantage of that option and you can always email an author to ask what the warnings are if you're that concerned about missing out on a good fic. It keeps the element of surprise that an author may want and I'll probably just skip the fic or ask someone else about it.
As has been pointed out by others over the years, the information given with a fic takes the place of a book cover. I'm one of the people who usually looks at the cover illustration and reads the blurb when deciding whether to read a book. I don't usually read the first or last page - the cover gives me enough information to know whether the book may interest me. I rely on fic information to give me the same details, which is one of the reasons why summaries consisting of a random line of dialogue or even just one word irritate me. There are things that I can read in a book (death, occasionally rape) that I simply can't read in fanfic. I don't know why, but there it is. Usually, though, the book cover tells me whether I'm dealing with an angsty, unhappy book or a fluffy happy book and I'm able to be prepared for whatever comes. I'm also not reading about characters that I watch on a TV screen and write about myself. There's a different kind of emotional intimacy between reading something that an author is doing to her characters and reading something that a fanfic author is doing to those guys on the screen that I watch every week. Maybe I'm crazy, but that's the way my reading works.
What it comes down to is handling warnings in a way that helps as many people as possible. If you're an author who really objects to having any kind of spoiler on your fic, even an optional one, then don't yell when someone a little less forgiving than me flames you because they read an unmarked rape fic and it triggered a flashback. Even the 'warnings withheld' option hidden in a clickable popup gives readers the option of looking and skipping merrily past your fic or emailing to say "I don't read rape fics - is your fic safe? Don't tell me what the surprise is."
And that turned into a much longer post than I intended it to be.
I'm one of those unpopular people who would like to have warnings available on fic. If there is no warning on a fic then I assume I'm not going to find a graphic rape scene in the middle of it, none of my favourite characters are going to die and nobody will be tied up, whipped, cut and buggered in a frenzy of orgasmic (to the writer) pleasure. These situations are things that I would like to be warned for because I really, really, really don't want to read them.
This doesn't mean that I want a great, honking, flashing sign on the screen saying "Danger! Possible graphic sex and bad language ahead!" If the rating is NC-17 then I assume that the sex will be graphic, the language may not make Mary Whitehouse happy and there's a chance that there may be violence in the story. I am honestly not that stupid or naive. I use the rating as a gauge on what level the fic is likely to be at.
But there are certain things (like death fic, rape fic, heavy BDSM, graphic, lovingly described torture) that I would like to have warnings available for. Very early in my fanfic career I read an unmarked, unwarned rape fic that nearly put me off fanfic for life. It was a very nervous, hesitant Sel that returned to the archives a few weeks later and got sucked back into fandom.
This doesn't mean that you need to put the warnings right up there at the top of the fic. Make them available and give me the choice of checking them out or forging on without caring. On my review archive, I make warnings available and it's up to the user as to whether they click the link to check the warnings or just go straight to the fic. No author has ever complained - in fact, I've had a number of authors and readers compliment me on the diplomatic solution to a perennial fandom problem. Put the warnings into a little pop-up that I can choose to open, hide them by giving them the same colour text as the background so that I have to highlight them to read them - I don't care how you do it. Just make them available and let me choose whether I want to be spoiled or not. I will not be a happy bunny if I read a fic that had no warnings and find one of my major squicks lurking in the middle of the fic. I won't flame you, but I won't read anything you write again and, if the fic was on an archive, I'll probably avoid the archive completely. I will have nightmares afterwards, be grouchy for a few days and probably hide myself in a favourite old book (not fic) until I feel better. And my insistence on warnings will just increase.
I do think that some warnings are ridiculous. Honestly, I think I can guess that there will be graphic het sex scenes in an NC-17 fic that is marked het or has a het pairing in the summary information. I don't expect Jack to talk like a BBC newsreader in an NC-17 fic. Partner betrayal doesn't feel like something that really needs a warning. I've never seen the point in an 'intense situations' warning because that really doesn't mean anything. One person's drama is another person's angsty tortured soul. I would appreciate a warning for excessively graphic violence, but it won't kill me if you don't provide it. Warnings for rape, death, underage content, heavy BDSM and related areas are, IMO, necessary.
As wanky as the AG is, I think that this is one area that they've handled well. I like the idea of a part zero post with each fic containing the summary, rating etc. It gives people the option of checking this stuff out (because some people object to having more than just a fic title and author) or jumping straight in. The part zero also allows authors to put warnings in under spoiler space - it's up the reader whether they're spoiled or not. You can read as much or as little of the information as you want to because you don't need to page through it to get to the fic - the fic is in a separate post. To my mind, it's a good compromise.
The debate on the AG is currently waging around whether people should be allowed to put 'Warnings withheld' instead of listing the warnings. As long as people aren't using that instead of stating 'no warnings' then I have no problem with that. As Rauhnee has stated, only a small percentage of authors will probably take advantage of that option and you can always email an author to ask what the warnings are if you're that concerned about missing out on a good fic. It keeps the element of surprise that an author may want and I'll probably just skip the fic or ask someone else about it.
As has been pointed out by others over the years, the information given with a fic takes the place of a book cover. I'm one of the people who usually looks at the cover illustration and reads the blurb when deciding whether to read a book. I don't usually read the first or last page - the cover gives me enough information to know whether the book may interest me. I rely on fic information to give me the same details, which is one of the reasons why summaries consisting of a random line of dialogue or even just one word irritate me. There are things that I can read in a book (death, occasionally rape) that I simply can't read in fanfic. I don't know why, but there it is. Usually, though, the book cover tells me whether I'm dealing with an angsty, unhappy book or a fluffy happy book and I'm able to be prepared for whatever comes. I'm also not reading about characters that I watch on a TV screen and write about myself. There's a different kind of emotional intimacy between reading something that an author is doing to her characters and reading something that a fanfic author is doing to those guys on the screen that I watch every week. Maybe I'm crazy, but that's the way my reading works.
What it comes down to is handling warnings in a way that helps as many people as possible. If you're an author who really objects to having any kind of spoiler on your fic, even an optional one, then don't yell when someone a little less forgiving than me flames you because they read an unmarked rape fic and it triggered a flashback. Even the 'warnings withheld' option hidden in a clickable popup gives readers the option of looking and skipping merrily past your fic or emailing to say "I don't read rape fics - is your fic safe? Don't tell me what the surprise is."
And that turned into a much longer post than I intended it to be.
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no subject
Date: 2004-09-28 06:26 pm (UTC)I have to admit, I rarely read part zero posts on AG, too. Because I pretty much only read fic by authors I know and like. I do more reading on LJ, and if the author is someone who might write a deathfic, and if I can't tell by the intro, I'll skim through the fic before reading it to get a sense of where the fic is going. I'm one of those folks who read fic for pure escapism.
To be honest, I'm a bit boggled by those who are making fun of folks who prefer warnings and would rather not to read certain types of fics. It seems meanspirited to me, and indicates a lack of understanding and tolerance that is kind of disturbing.
Anyway, yeah, Biblio's scolding was definitely over-the-top.
no subject
Date: 2004-09-28 07:24 pm (UTC)I'd love to claim credit for it, but someone who goes by the LJ name alittletoolate made it. I'm not much with the graphics. I tend to stick to words and leave the images to others.
I pretty much only read fic by authors I know and like
/nods/ It doesn't take much time to determine who in a fandom can write and who can't, or who can write but simply writes things that aren't to your taste.
I'm one of those folks who read fic for pure escapism.
I do that, too, some of the time. And sometimes I write for pure escapism, but sometimes I write stuff that I really do feel like I opened up a vein when I wrote it. I've never written a death fic, although I wrote a snippet in which a character's fate is left to the reader's imagination. Did Duncan leave Tessa or is he dead? She doesn't know and neither does the reader.
But I once wrote a story about genocide, and Qui-Gon's inablity to stop it or cope with the fact that he couldn't stop it. The story opens with Obi-Wan piling bodies onto a mass grave. I didn't warn for graphic imagery or violence. No one wrote to me and yelled about the imagery, but as Des recently reminded me, TPM had it's own strange rules. Plus that was five years ago. If I posted the same story to the same list now I might receive a different reaction.
I don't object to warnings per se, and I'd probably be willing to make what I consider reasonable warnings. But I want that decision to be mine. Yes, I have an obligation to people who read my work: the obligation to write to the best of my ability. I do not have an obligation to protect them from disturbing material or their own emotions. But then I'm also not of the opinion that I'm owed feedback or reader response of any kind. If a reader writes to me, I'm thankful. I don't expect feedback and I don't feel anyone owes it to me anymore than I think an editor I send an original fic to is obligated to print it. Unfortunately, they seem to feel the same way. /g/
I'm meandering. Too much thinking, not enough sleeping.
However, I agree with you about some of the responses being mean-spirited. Be respectful, people. It isn't hard, really it isn't.
Biblio's scolding was definitely over-the-top.
I'm rather fond of her scolding of me. It's never before been recommended to me that I unsub from a list. I think this means that I will never, ever be the nice one in this fandom. :( I'll have to go back to HL, because by HL standards I'm downright cuddly. /g/
no subject
Date: 2004-09-30 09:14 am (UTC)I understand why some people need or want warnings on stories, especially ones that touch on severe loss and trauma.
I'd hoped that people would understand :-)
Many of those oh-so-rare stories would have suffered from a warning, or at least my experience of them would have. That said, I can understand that other people feel differently.
It's the fact that everyone reacts differently to different things - there are a lot of people on the list who apparently love and search out rape fics. That's one of the things that I really don't want to read about, and definitely want to avoid in the graphic detail that some of the writers feel is necessary. I feel that it's a courtesy to make those warnings available for the people who need them rather than simply assuming that everyone will enjoy the shock of whatever the writer has done.
It's a workable compromise.
::nods:: It's one of the few things that I still think tuna gate does well. They aren't insisting that the warnings be front and centre of all fics, but they do want to make them available for those that need them.
I took one long at that lengthy part zero and knew I'd never post fic there. I'm simply not that ambitious. And I won't warn for strong language, because that is silly.
I went and had a look at the section of the zero post dealing with warnings and...yup, some of the things they suggested are very over the top. Silly. It's your choice not to post there and that's fine. I'm starting to wonder whether the thing I'm working on will need warnings according to that zero post. I don't write things that would ordinarily need warnings (no death, rape, bloody play etc. here *g*), but I do have a 'trapped under tons of rubble' theme to the fic and that warning list indicates that I may have to include warnings for claustrophobia and 'intense situations'. Bleh. There's warnings for sensible things and then there's taking the warnings thing into silly territory.
When you make a statement like that you are saying that readers cannot take responsiblity for their own feelings.
Having read the list history, I can understand why she said it (although it was badly expressed ::sigh::). OTOH, it is insulting to put the blame for a reader's bad reaction firmly on the author. There are a few nuts out there who will find a way to flame and harrass writers no matter what they write. Including very disturbing stuff in a story without any warnings might increase the odds of it happening slightly, but it's the reader who can't cope. That said, making warnings available does allow those readers to skip the fic and gives the writer a safety net so that a reader shouldn't flame them for 'forcing' them to read a rape fic that they couldn't cope with.
To be honest, I'm a bit boggled by those who are making fun of folks who prefer warnings and would rather not to read certain types of fics.
I find that as insulting as Biblio's comments about 'pretentios' writers. Am I a fluffy-brained idiot or an emotionally crippled moron for not wanting to read certain things? Does the fact that I'd rather read fics without graphic rape or a favourite character dying somehow make me a less dedicated fanfic reader than anyone else? Throwing around insults because I'm not one of the people who will read absolutely everything written is, frankly, offensive.
/nods/ It doesn't take much time to determine who in a fandom can write and who can't, or who can write but simply writes things that aren't to your taste.
I try to read a reasonable amount of fic by authors I don't know so that I can find interesting new things to review. Unfortunately there is a lot out there that you can tell from the summary and the first couple of sentences will be bad. There are writers that I know will do good stuff so I look out for their stuff, there are writers that I know won't be to my taste or can't write to save their lives and then there are the beagles :-)
Continued in second post. Damn LJ's word limits in comments!
no subject
Date: 2004-09-30 09:15 am (UTC)I do not have an obligation to protect them from disturbing material or their own emotions.
I've always felt that I have an obligation to give people the choice about it - make warnings available for things that I know will be traumatic so they can choose whether to read the warnings and whether to read the fic. I don't feel any obligation to check twenty times whether they're really sure that they want to read an PG het fic that may contain mention of kissing, but I do want people reading my fic (or fic I've rec'd) to have the option of avoiding material that may be deeply disturbing for them.
I have a slightly different attitude to original fiction, but in the unlikely event that I did write a novel with a graphically described gang rape I'd want my publisher to put some kind of warning somewhere on the book and I wouldn't want it shelved with the chick-lit.
I don't expect feedback and I don't feel anyone owes it to me anymore than I think an editor I send an original fic to is obligated to print it. Unfortunately, they seem to feel the same way. /g/
Same here. On both counts :-)
It's never before been recommended to me that I unsub from a list.
That's the first time I've ever seen that anywhere. More than a wee bit of an over the top reaction.
I'll have to go back to HL, because by HL standards I'm downright cuddly.
::snort:: Stay in our playground! SG is a weird, bitchy, fragmented fandom...wait, what was my point again? :-)
On to a subject we can fully agree on, isn't Sam lickable? /g/
Absolutely *g* I love that icon :-)) Of course, the Buffy/Faith icon is rather spiffy as well. Damn, I need to find the money for a paid account and get more icons :-)
no subject
Date: 2004-09-30 12:53 pm (UTC)Me, too. I made a deal with myself, and then formalized it with the spouse, because that way I have to stick to it. When I earn some money by writing, a story gets accepted, or I hustle up a client for some business or non-profit writing, then I can get a paid account. As incentives go, it's not a bad one I suppose.
But, yeah, I want more icon space. I'm constantly changing the three free ones.
Buffy and Faith were made by kamilaa. You may want to friend her because she makes lovely icons and most of them are either Buffy or Angel. She made a Tara one I haven't used yet that is just gorgeous. What's really cool is that she's developing a specific style. I can identify one of her icons even if someone else is using it.
Stay in our playground!
I will. I'm simply startled by how different it is from some of the other fandoms I've been in, or maybe it's just the difference between a fandom where the show is on the air and one where it isn't, or maybe I'm more involved in this fandom. Normally, I just lurk unless I'm posting fic. In this fandom I don't seem to be able to shut up.
More than a wee bit of an over the top reaction.
/laughter/ That woman is not rowing with both oars.
Having read the list history, I can understand why she said it
I couldn't. I don't expect anyone, certainly not a List 'Mom,' to protect me from other people's opinions of my writing, my personality, or my stunning good-looks. /eg/ Biblio's explanation seemed to be that someone, who was clearly a bit unbalanced, was stalking writers, archivists, and beta readers in response to stories that she didn't like. The list's democratically arrived at solution was to tell writers that if they posted a story without warnings and were subsequently stalked then it was their own fault for not warning. In addition, warnings were now required.
To me, that's blaming the victim.
I thought about saying all of that onlist for about all of five seconds, then decided adding fuel to a fire I had helped ignite in the first place would be a bad idea.
Does the fact that I'd rather read fics without graphic rape or a favourite character dying somehow make me a less dedicated fanfic reader than anyone else? Throwing around insults because I'm not one of the people who will read absolutely everything written is, frankly, offensive.
I agree. Some nasty things were said by both sides. However, the people who whined that writers who didn't want to include warnings were depriving them of their fic or disrespecting their issues, those people need to take a little responsiblity for themselves. (I was tempted to say they need to grow the fuck up, but that would have made me guilty of both using bad language and not respecting their issues. /eg/)
Lastly, that whole list needs to acquire a sense of humor.
no subject
Date: 2004-09-30 03:18 pm (UTC)That's not a bad incentive. I'm figuring that when I rejoin the ranks of the employed, I'll finally splurge on the paid account. That gives me a motive for passing this darned degree so that I can be employed :-)
In this fandom I don't seem to be able to shut up.
::snort:: I have no idea why, but this fandom seems to cause that in many people. I'm not sure that it is because this fandom still has new eps showing or not - things in the Buffy fandom were much more stable and less bitchy during airing time. I got involved towards the end of season 2, actively contributed to the Bronze for a couple of years and still chat to old Buffy friends and they don't report Stargate-like stuff. I've come to the conclusion that SG is just a weird fandom with strange habits that get people far more
riled uppassionate than most other fandoms.That woman is not rowing with both oars.
::snort:: Best explanation I've seen all day :-)
I don't expect anyone, certainly not a List 'Mom,' to protect me from other people's opinions of my writing, my personality, or my stunning good-looks.
I think that I read it a different way - after a bad experience with an obssessive stalker, they were trying to reduce the chances of a recurrance. It could have been phrased better and the implication that it's your own stupid fault if you miss out warnings and get stalked is a bit too strong, but at the time I think they were trying to do their best in the face of a frightening problem. The idea behind the list rule to provide warnings was well-meant, but telling people that you can't blame the deranged fan who is stalking you because you didn't provide sufficient warnings on the fic goes too far.
I thought about saying all of that onlist for about all of five seconds, then decided adding fuel to a fire I had helped ignite in the first place would be a bad idea.
Er, yes. I can see how that might...cause tuna gate to self combust again.
Some nasty things were said by both sides.
::nods:: Strangely, this was one of the better conducted disputes on the AG. Normally the first flame would have appeared three posts in. But I don't think that list is capable of holding a discussion on anything even slightly controversial without eventually descending into name-calling and nastiness ::snigh::
However, the people who whined that writers who didn't want to include warnings were depriving them of their fic or disrespecting their issues, those people need to take a little responsiblity for themselves.
Grrrrr. That arguement was totally inane. The discussion wasn't about leaving off warnings about everything - it was about adding a 'warning withheld' option that would probably be used rarely anyway. Whinging that writers were depriving readers of their favourite rape fic because the reader doesn't want to take the chance of reading a death fic is just silly. It isn't as though they were proposing that all fics on the AG would be without warnings so you'd never be able to tell whether you were opening a fluffy jammie fic or a brutal rape fic. The odds are that there will only be a few fics where the warning doesn't give away the exact nature of the disturbing elements - I honestly don't think that it will be too difficult for readers to find out whether it's a fic they'd want to read even with that. Most of those posters seemed to feel that it was a mass conspiracy by all writers to deprive those readers of their favourite fic types.
Lastly, that whole list needs to acquire a sense of humor.
Oh, boy, yes. I'm sure they weren't quite so....nutso when the list began. I discinctly remember that the first couple of months were *fun*.
Buffy and Faith were made by kamilaa.
::icon droolage:: Those icons are *good*. Tara is lovely - I met Amber Benson at a signing in London a few years ago and she's even more lovely in person. Beautiful eyes.
Now, which pretty new icon shall I upload to replace Keira...
no subject
Date: 2004-09-30 03:16 pm (UTC)You know, this might be a case of selective memory on my part -- there were, I don't know, about a billion posts to wade through? *g* -- but I don't really recall anyone mocking people who wanted warnings. Or maybe I've just blocked it from my memory in an attempt to stop thinking about the whole thing, at this point. In off-list venues, there has definitely been some scorn over other issues, such as the idea that a reader can be traumatized for life by something she *chose* to read from the first word to the last, but I've seen a lot of respect for the idea that warnings are a matter of personal preference. Those are two separate issues. I've seen a lot *less* respect where the issue of writer motivation is concerned.
no subject
Date: 2004-09-30 03:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-09-30 04:10 pm (UTC)I wouldn't blame you if that's what you did :-) Those comments managed to stay off-list (the AG somehow managed to avoid hitting that one), but I've seen a few nasty comments in other places.
but I've seen a lot of respect for the idea that warnings are a matter of personal preference.
On-list, there was a fair amount of respect for that side of things. There was a complete lack of respect and a fair amount of bitchiness on other aspects of the debate, but no one on-list made nasty comments about the pro-availability of warnings folk.
I do keep wanting to jump up and yell at people that I'm not a fluffy-brained idiot just because I prefer to avoid fics with certain content. I wasn't traumatised for life by the unmarked rape fic I stumbled on, but it haunted me in a bad way for days afterwards. The back button is a marvellous thing, but not all writer sign-post their graphic rape scene with a moustache-twirling villian smirking about having his way - you get quite involved in a fic before discovering that the hero(ine) isn't going to fight off the attacker and there will be an intense description of the rape. By that stage, even if you do use the back button immediately, the images are there in your mind and it took me a long time to force them away.
Continuing to read through to the last word and then complaining about life-long trauma isn't the most sensible way of dealing with it, I completely agree there, but most of the pro-warnings folk have a point.
I've seen a lot *less* respect where the issue of writer motivation is concerned.
Good god, yes. Some of it went so far beyond rational, I wanted to reach through my screen and smack some of the posters. As pro-warnings as I am, I completely understood why some people felt that a detailed run-down of everything in their fic might spoil the point of their fic. The 'Sixth Sense' comparison was actually a good one - I knew there might be a twist, I'd been told it wasn't something I'd ordinarily want to watch, but the movie wouldn't have had the same effect on me if I'd known what the twist was. When certain posters (a list owner really should know better *sigh*) began name calling and deriding the writers like that, it was insulting to pretty much anyone who's ever written a word.