In which I have thoughts on Amazon trying to monetize fanfic (shocking, I know)

[selenay]

Oh look, it's 2007 all over again. Well done, Amazon.


Having read a few articles (and a whole bunch of incredulous Tweeting), I'm not feeling as worried as I was when first I opened up Twitter at lunch. The DailyDot article has the best analysis so far of why this may (hopefully will) just sink like a lead brick. I saw a lot of comments on the various tech blogs and news site articles, most of them stating that they assumed fic writers would jump for it because they'll love all that exposure and potential money.

Hahaha, no.

Most fic writers aren't in this for money. We're not looking to become the next E. L. James. Hell, that's the last thing most of us want (even if the money would be nice) because 99% of fan writers didn't get into fanfic for the adulation and money.

We write because it's fun, we enjoy it, it's creative and expressive and there's a freedom to being able to write whatever we want.

Yup, some people do use it as a writing exercise with the aim of graduating to original fiction and publishing eventually. And some of those people have continued to write original published work *and* write fanfic just because the fanfic is so much fun.

For most of us, writing fanfic isn't done with an eye to a publishing contract. So the Amazon thing isn't going to tempt the majority of fanwriters.

And when you actually read the nitty gritty of the restrictions and licenses, it all starts to look deeply fishy and really not much better than the Fanlib debacle. Only certain fandoms are licensed, no cross-overs or explicit sex, no accidental copyright infringement of anything else - so that's a huge segment of fanfic already not permitted. If you also consider that any elements you add (original characters, for example) become the property of the licensing 'World' creator to be used as they want with no further money paid to the creator, the whole thing just seems like a bad deal.

So really, I don't predict many fic writers will be jumping to sign up. Only the really new ones who don't know any better and maybe the odd writer who already works in those fandoms and gets tempted by the prospect of some royalties.

As for readers...

Again, I don't see the readership being huge. When there is an excellent source of fanfic (Archive of Our Own!) for free, with works in any fandom you can think of and no restriction on what the content can be, the only people likely to pay for these Kindle books are the new fans who don't know about the AO3 and other archives.

I mean, if I want fanfic on my Kindle then I can just download the .mobi file from AO3 and put it on my Kindle. Ta da! Ridiculously easy.

(Let's not discuss how much fanfic is on my Kindle. It's bad numbers. BAD.)

My only slight concern is what the creators of, say, Pretty Little Liars will do about all that free fanfic lurking on the net after this goes live. Will they leave it alone or decide that now there's a 'legal' route for it, they can issue a bunch of C&D letters to the writers and archives?

And what will happen in the unlikely event that creators for the truely huge fandoms (Marvel, Teen Wolf, Sherlock) sign up?


Hopefully Kindle Worlds will go the way of Fanlib and die a quiet, ignomnious death. At the moment that seems the most likely future for it, given the level of uproar and the fact that 99% of readers/writers are already planning to simply pretend it doesn't exist. Fingers are all firmly crossed.

Comments

[bendingwind]

/creeps on dw

I'm interested to see where this goes in terms of the legality of fanfic? Obviously this is a terrible deal and I sincerely hope that no/few people take them up on this, but I... idk, I have complex feelings on fanfic for profit. I do not write fanfic for profit, that's not the reason I'm in fandom, but there are weeks when I've had $10 for groceries and wished so hard that I could just take a few commissions like fanartists have the ability to. Some of my fanfiction contains more original content than fanart that's sold for profit, y'know?

I guess I'm just interested to see if Kindle Worlds, and fandom's response to it, opens avenues for content creators to make better, fairer deals with fanfiction writers so that fanfiction for profit is less of a grey area, whether fanfiction for profit becomes permissible or not. I just think that fanfiction has become so quietly pervasive in culture and such a huge phenomenon at this point that we really need an official line on its legality spelled out. It's overdue.

[selenay]

Creep away :-D

wished so hard that I could just take a few commissions like fanartists have the ability to

I know what you mean *sigh* It's just...part of me feels deeply worried that if there are 'legitimate' platforms for fic, all paid for and signed up by Amazon, then the legality of fanfic will become more complicated. Right now we're left to do what we want in any way we want as long as we don't throw it under the license holders' noses or try to make a fortune off it.

The thing I can see happening is that content creators will want fan writers to stick to certain areas, certain plots and thoughts and so on, and fan writers who don't want to stay within the boundaries will get threatened with legal action *because* there are legal ways to distribute their fic if they'd just stay within the guidelines.

I just think that fanfiction has become so quietly pervasive in culture and such a huge phenomenon at this point that we really need an official line on its legality spelled out. It's overdue.

I can definitely see this, but I think that the way it's become quietly pervasive with archives that are actually upfront about what they're doing is as much of an official line as I want. Officially licensed fanfic - which is what Amazon is doing here - is a vastly different beast from artists taking some commissions and it makes me feel deeply uncomfortable that this is the direction the legality could go.

*sigh* I guess we just have to keep watching and see what happensÉ

[bendingwind]

Yeah, I am worried about the direction it will go in. IDK, I have a feeling that in the end this will be a dismally useless failure for amazon and the ~status quo will be maintained.

And maybe I am overly optimistic about the potential for the law to go our way and fanfiction to be declared the same as fanart under fair use. :p

[selenay]

I have a feeling that in the end this will be a dismally useless failure for amazon

This is my gut feeling. I mean, similar things have been tried before and fandom just...ignores them until they go away.

nd maybe I am overly optimistic about the potential for the law to go our way and fanfiction to be declared the same as fanart under fair use. :p

I didn't like to say anything but...

Yes :-P

[emmzzi]

I...cannot see Conan Doyle signing up :)

But yes. AO3. Or the Russet Potato debacle all over again...

[selenay]

:-D Yup, I think Conan Doyle would have some 'views' on this. Heh.

Am I being a little bit clueless in not knowing what the Russet Potato debacle refers to?

[emmzzi]

No, I just enjoy fandom wank communities to an unhealthy degree

http://fanlore.org/wiki/Russet_Noon

fanfic writer tries to sell unlicensed fanfic; parody with potatoes ensues

http://www.peterdavid.net/2009/04/22/potato-moon-lo-there-shall-be-a-covering/

[selenay]

That...is possibly the best response I've seen to one of those kerfluffles :-D

(I generally avoid the fandom wank comms because they're bad for my rage levels).

[tawg]

I'm seconding the "but legality, hrmmm" comment. Because you can write a song, or do an art, or put a puppet show up on youtube and that seems to be NBD, but fanfic just attracts this weird side-eye from the rest of fandom (at least, I assume it still does. If someone I know hates on fanfic, we don't stay friends for very long because it's practically my only hobby). So I'm always interested in projects that could increase the perceived legitimacy of fanfic.

And, to come at it from a different angle, if the fic content becomes the property of the licensing 'world' creator, then does that mean the work and be legally appropriated? Rather than a C&D, maybe the owners of the core text will find a way to profit from all of the free labour. Perhaps that ends happily with someone getting a job, perhaps that ends badly with a fan realising that their fanfic magnum opus has been turned into the latest BBC radio play without them getting a heads up. Interesting thought experiment, but yeah. I kinda hope this dies quietly.

[selenay]

at least, I assume it still does.

I...think it does? I'm more or less the same - if a fannish friend is staunchly anti-fanfic then I'm probably not going to be sticking around so I don't see a huge amount of the weird side-eyeing.

So I'm always interested in projects that could increase the perceived legitimacy of fanfic.

Increasing the legitimacy so I don't get the weird side-eye from non-fandom writing friends would be good. Feeling less odd about admitting I'm a fic writer to mundanes would be good. I'm just dubious about whether *this* is the way to do it :-(

Interesting thought experiment,

Certainly the commentary I've seen indicates that this is a really bad contract and it seems to restrict writers from writing *other* fic for free, which I can see being problematic as well.

perhaps that ends badly with a fan realising that their fanfic magnum opus has been turned into the latest BBC radio play without them getting a heads up

Somehow that feels like the more likely scenario :-(

I kinda hope this dies quietly.

*sigh* Yes, this.

[tawg]

Basically, yeah. I've not done any reading into this at all because I thought it was a joke when I went to bed and I've only been up an hour, but the commentary seems unanimous on this being a really, really shitty deal. Idk. I'd like less "We can now make money off you! Whee!" attention from the non-fic community, and more "Well, it's pretty cool that you do this all for fun. Actually, wow, you all put a lot of work into this, don't you? It shows" and then we beam proudly. I feel like wider fandom thinks that fanfic should be in its little corners, but fic-centric fandom thinks that creative fanworks should be the central hub (regardless of what form that work is). Does any of this make sense? I'm late for work. We can chat more when I'm on my work comp :p

[selenay]

less "We can now make money off you! Whee!" attention from the non-fic community

Most of the reaction from the non-fic community that I've seen has bee closer to "I can't imagine why any of you wouldn't want to make money!", which kills me even more. I'd love some acknowledgement of the work we put in, a sense that we can be proud of what our work is, but that's not what I'm seeing.

It's like the thing with knitting - people are incredulous that you'd put in so much hard work and not want to sell the results. Except if I'm making money out of it then it becomes work and not something I do just because I'm enjoying it. The idea of a gift culture and collaborative work with no compensation seems to boggle people. Again.

[tawg]

Yes yes yes. Nothing sucks the fun out of something so much as it becoming your job. And I can understand why people would write for a living - I would love to take six months off and turn out a novel. I would love for people to then read that novel (and I would become a total wreck if reviews were ever posted, because I'm bad enough when it comes to fanfic comments). But... I guess I write for a lot of reasons, and the attention is only a slice of it. I don't have the disposition to be able to turn writing into a job at any level. The AO3 auction has basically confirmed for me that I am not so great at writing on commission.

I mean, I think it would be great if I could commission people to do fic for me. I would love to be able to throw money at my favourite writers and get one of those stories that I want but never will write out of them in return. I don't have any problem with such a system evolving. I also don't have a problem with writers getting hired out of fandom, since it's a system that can work for fanartists. I guess I do have a problem with the assumption that getting published/making money is the ultimate and final goal when it comes to creative expression. A lot of people who don't write seem to have very firm views about the purpose of writing, and by their standards fanfic is consistently Doing It Wrong. Which, bleh.

[selenay]

I guess I write for a lot of reasons, and the attention is only a slice of it.

My beta keeps joking that I'm on my way to being a BNF and that's the last thing I want. Ugh, nightmare. People reading and enjoying what I write is nice and it's what encourages me to do that last editing pass to make it as unsucky as I can make it, but I'm writing for a dozen other reasons. Otherwise I wouldn't try some of the experiments I do.

The AO3 auction has basically confirmed for me that I am not so great at writing on commission.

Same. I'm writing something a long way out of what I'd usually do and it's demonstrating that I really like just writing whatever I want and letting stories go in whatever direction they go in without reference to what anyone else wants.

I don't have any problem with such a system evolving.

A system like the one fanart commissions runs on wouldn't bother me at all. I think my major issue is with the way Amazon (and previously other things like Fanlib) are proposing to do it. The whole thing makes me feel deeply uncomfortable.

Then again, I've been uncomfortable about this whole thing where publishers seem to see fanfic as an untapped resource for a while now. 50 Shades has a lot to answer for and not just because it's badly written :-(

A lot of people who don't write seem to have very firm views about the purpose of writing, and by their standards fanfic is consistently Doing It Wrong.

Yes. Bleh. We do everything wrong because we're fanfic writers :-(

But we have so much fun Doing It Wrong :-)

[tawg]

I've been told that all of my favourite parts of fandom are Doing It Wrong and, well I don't wanna be right!

I have the complete opposite problem for my auction fics - both recipients basically said "Keep doing what you're doing!" and I'm just... Noooo, this was not the deal. On a related note, I'm probably going to bug you to be a story beta for me when these get done, because I like your brain.

In terms of selling fanfic... I think I kinda want a Society6 type store, where writers could put up like a little compilation of their fics that I could buy in hardcopy book form, and the content is just of no concern whatsoever to the company. Publishers could stop trying to sell us content that we're happy generating ourselves, and look into supplying tools that are a pain in the butt for people to develop themselves. Hrm. Anyway.

[selenay]

I've been told that all of my favourite parts of fandom are Doing It Wrong and, well I don't wanna be right!

Same :-D

Noooo, this was not the deal

That...seems like an unhelpful thing? Mine asked for a fic filled with all the angst, pain, and pining I could manage. Not in any way fluffy. I'm struggling with this because, uh, I keep wanting to make it flirty and bantery and adorkable and then I go back to the prompt and go "right, yes, guilt and pain not banter".

On a related note, I'm probably going to bug you to be a story beta for me when these get done, because I like your brain.

Sure! Let me know what you need when you need it :-D This is both flattering and slightly worrying - sure you're not a zombie?

I think I kinda want a Society6 type store, where writers could put up like a little compilation of their fics that I could buy in hardcopy book form, and the content is just of no concern whatsoever to the company

This is more-or-less what zines were once upon a time :-D I kind of miss them sometimes.

[tawg]

I've been meaning to reply to this since you posted it because ziiiines. Which still happen! I helped organise one in the Hot Fuzz fandom a few years ago, and there were a few Destiel zines in the SPN fandom (sadly I never got into them, because I was always a season behind and very few of them listed where in the timeline the stories within took place). I've always wanted to collect up some of my stories and format them into a zine. And I've always wanted to have a bunch of people do a story on the same theme or trope and collect them together. What a chance to indulge my typogaphy and graphic design geekery.

And as for me being a zombie? Braaiinns No comment.

[selenay]

I still have the zines I bought when I was in Stargate fandom eons ago. I knew that there were people building webzines (mainly in PDFs) but not that print zines were still a thing.

And I've always wanted to have a bunch of people do a story on the same theme or trope and collect them together. What a chance to indulge my typogaphy and graphic design geekery.

That would be a fantastic idea :-D

The thing that I loved about zines was that there was artwork as well as fic and they were something you could keep going back to. Plus, you know, an insistence on a certain level of decent editing and typo removal ;-) In my ideal scenario, there would be a zine with a collection of stories and art on a trope all beautifully laid out. Available in print (price covering costs) and also in some way on the web as a PDF, ePub and .mobi because so many of us now tote our fic around. But the electronic copies would include the art and wouldn't break on my Kindle because PDFs are so inflexible (I found a beautiful Star Trek zine a couple of years ago that was a PDF and they'd done a gorgeous job and it looks great on my iPad...and sucks piggy-wonks on all the ereaders I tried). I've seen some pro books with illustrations done fantastically on ereaders so I know it's possible. We just need to get fandom behind the idea :-D

I've always wanted to collect up some of my stories and format them into a zine.

I would be there buying/downloading that zine in a heartbeat :-D

[drgnhlr]

This will be interesting to track as it gains momentum. (If it gains momentum)

I have not been in fan fiction long (only since October '12), and don't really play in any real part of the community, though I'm trying. I write for a combination of reasons - I love to write, want to share my stories, and am using the practice to get better for original works.

I think, at this moment, (first blush) that it could (COULD) be a good thing for those willing to play by those rules. But I am just not sure.

We'll all be watching, I suspect.

~Feathered Schist