Kittens, Spock thoughts and other babbles
May. 15th, 2009 02:57 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
selenayFirst of all, the Spock thoughts. Obviously spoilers will abound.
I was chatting with a friend at knitting last night and she mentioned that Quinto!Spock seemed to have more obvious, just simmering under the surface emotions that Spock Prime. It got me thinking about Vulcans and emotions in general.
My understanding (please correct me if this is a case of personal fanon vs canon) is that Vulcans are not, in fact, emotionless. I can't remember if it was Spock Prime or Tuvok who explained it once, but Vulcans in fact have very strong emotions and use logic as a disclipline to control and manage those feelings. At some stage, Vulcans were consumed by their intense emotions to the extend where they threatened to destroy themselves through violence and fighting.
Then someone started to develop the ideals of logic and its use to control and suppress those emotions and desires, bringing the Vulcans to the peaceful, scientific people that we now know.
To me that's interesting because it indicates that Vulcans are not born logical and calm, but are instead raised that way. Perhaps they have a greater capacity for learning the disciplines than humans, but it is learned behaviour from infancy rather than a natural inability to feel emotions.
It certainly makes sense of Sarek marrying Amanda for love rather than logic and, in many ways, helps to explain how a Vulcan and a human can remain happily married for the length of time they did. If Vulcans felt nothing but calm logic outside of Pon Farr, then Amanda would probably have had a very disappointing marriage!
Of course, that doesn't help to explain Pon Farr unless Vulcan biology is such that Pon Farr overwhelms the logic disciplines and pre-dates logic. I need to re-watch Amock Time at some stage :-D Did the pre-logic Vulcans still have Pon Farr?
The idea that Vulcans naturally have a greater capacity for learning logic is the only way to explain why Spock's half-human heritage is seen as a disadvantage by most Vulcans. Or perhaps it is Vulcan arrogance assuming that human heritage will disadvantage Spock when in fact there is no such disadvantage? The children that we see bullying child!Spock taunt and insult him into a display of violence, but can't the bullying be interpreted as an emotional act?
None of this really explains why Quinto!Spock betrays more in the way of simmering emotions under the logic, but perhaps that should be put down to the change in time-lines. I have seen discussion of the fact that Quinto!Spock's "Live Long and Prosper" moment in front of the Vulcan council doesn't tally with what we know of Spock Prime's motivations for joining Starfleet, but I'm not sure. He had years to logic out a reason for the confrontation before we see him explain why he chose Starfleet so I see no reason why the canon for Spock didn't split until the Enterprise's mission.
I think that I've just discounted my own logic :-D The Enterprise mission almost immediately brings us to the destruction of Vulcan and, as Spock Prime says, he is definitely emotionally compromised from that point. Perhaps an argument for the "Vulcans have emotions" theory? That is where Spock's time-line deviates from the original, I think. Perhaps it is as simple as there being tiny, teeny timeline changes as a result of the destruction of the USS Kelvin that somehow mean Quinto!Spock doesn't have the logic mask working quite so well as Spock Prime. Things happen at the Academy that keep Quinto!Spock from acheiving the mature, complete understanding of logic that Spock Prime acheived before he received his Enterprise posting.
Or perhaps Spock Prime continued to perfect his understanding of logic durign the years between the Academy and the time we first see him on the Enterprise. The destruction of Vulcan and its impact on Quinto!Spock could make his development very interesting.
Of course, my original supposition about Vulcans and their relationship with logic could be entirely wrong and thus everything I've discussed is total balderdash. Anyone else have any input?
Now that is over, time for kittens! Annie came up with a new trick this morning. We were having our morning cuddle where she clings on like a baby and I try to anticpate where she's going to move her head so that I don't spill coffee all over her when she tried something new. She squirmed up to drape herself over my shoulder (nothing new there) and then reared up to cuddle the top of my head!
It was like having a car window cat plastered to my face.
Stupid thing? She did it twice. And I was laughing so hard I couldn't tell her off. My girls know how to entertain me :-)
In other, less funny news, my back is achey and grouchy. Oddly, this is harder to deal with than full-on crying and screaming from pain stuff. It's achey and its going down through my hips and legs to make them achey, my knees are all unhappy and it's such a dull, niggly pain that it's driving me insane. Even stretching out isn't helping for more than a couple of minutes. Grrrrr.
I'm gonna need the extra painkillers to sleep tonight because it's just going to annoy me and keep me awake for hours and hours otherwise.
But there is a good thing - long weekend! Woo! And I'm having a day trip tomorrow. Plus sort of considering maybe a sneaking off to a return trip to Star Trek on Monday. Maybe. Unless my plans get interferred with. Er, wait, how often do my weekends go according to actual plan?
I was chatting with a friend at knitting last night and she mentioned that Quinto!Spock seemed to have more obvious, just simmering under the surface emotions that Spock Prime. It got me thinking about Vulcans and emotions in general.
My understanding (please correct me if this is a case of personal fanon vs canon) is that Vulcans are not, in fact, emotionless. I can't remember if it was Spock Prime or Tuvok who explained it once, but Vulcans in fact have very strong emotions and use logic as a disclipline to control and manage those feelings. At some stage, Vulcans were consumed by their intense emotions to the extend where they threatened to destroy themselves through violence and fighting.
Then someone started to develop the ideals of logic and its use to control and suppress those emotions and desires, bringing the Vulcans to the peaceful, scientific people that we now know.
To me that's interesting because it indicates that Vulcans are not born logical and calm, but are instead raised that way. Perhaps they have a greater capacity for learning the disciplines than humans, but it is learned behaviour from infancy rather than a natural inability to feel emotions.
It certainly makes sense of Sarek marrying Amanda for love rather than logic and, in many ways, helps to explain how a Vulcan and a human can remain happily married for the length of time they did. If Vulcans felt nothing but calm logic outside of Pon Farr, then Amanda would probably have had a very disappointing marriage!
Of course, that doesn't help to explain Pon Farr unless Vulcan biology is such that Pon Farr overwhelms the logic disciplines and pre-dates logic. I need to re-watch Amock Time at some stage :-D Did the pre-logic Vulcans still have Pon Farr?
The idea that Vulcans naturally have a greater capacity for learning logic is the only way to explain why Spock's half-human heritage is seen as a disadvantage by most Vulcans. Or perhaps it is Vulcan arrogance assuming that human heritage will disadvantage Spock when in fact there is no such disadvantage? The children that we see bullying child!Spock taunt and insult him into a display of violence, but can't the bullying be interpreted as an emotional act?
None of this really explains why Quinto!Spock betrays more in the way of simmering emotions under the logic, but perhaps that should be put down to the change in time-lines. I have seen discussion of the fact that Quinto!Spock's "Live Long and Prosper" moment in front of the Vulcan council doesn't tally with what we know of Spock Prime's motivations for joining Starfleet, but I'm not sure. He had years to logic out a reason for the confrontation before we see him explain why he chose Starfleet so I see no reason why the canon for Spock didn't split until the Enterprise's mission.
I think that I've just discounted my own logic :-D The Enterprise mission almost immediately brings us to the destruction of Vulcan and, as Spock Prime says, he is definitely emotionally compromised from that point. Perhaps an argument for the "Vulcans have emotions" theory? That is where Spock's time-line deviates from the original, I think. Perhaps it is as simple as there being tiny, teeny timeline changes as a result of the destruction of the USS Kelvin that somehow mean Quinto!Spock doesn't have the logic mask working quite so well as Spock Prime. Things happen at the Academy that keep Quinto!Spock from acheiving the mature, complete understanding of logic that Spock Prime acheived before he received his Enterprise posting.
Or perhaps Spock Prime continued to perfect his understanding of logic durign the years between the Academy and the time we first see him on the Enterprise. The destruction of Vulcan and its impact on Quinto!Spock could make his development very interesting.
Of course, my original supposition about Vulcans and their relationship with logic could be entirely wrong and thus everything I've discussed is total balderdash. Anyone else have any input?
Now that is over, time for kittens! Annie came up with a new trick this morning. We were having our morning cuddle where she clings on like a baby and I try to anticpate where she's going to move her head so that I don't spill coffee all over her when she tried something new. She squirmed up to drape herself over my shoulder (nothing new there) and then reared up to cuddle the top of my head!
It was like having a car window cat plastered to my face.
Stupid thing? She did it twice. And I was laughing so hard I couldn't tell her off. My girls know how to entertain me :-)
In other, less funny news, my back is achey and grouchy. Oddly, this is harder to deal with than full-on crying and screaming from pain stuff. It's achey and its going down through my hips and legs to make them achey, my knees are all unhappy and it's such a dull, niggly pain that it's driving me insane. Even stretching out isn't helping for more than a couple of minutes. Grrrrr.
I'm gonna need the extra painkillers to sleep tonight because it's just going to annoy me and keep me awake for hours and hours otherwise.
But there is a good thing - long weekend! Woo! And I'm having a day trip tomorrow. Plus sort of considering maybe a sneaking off to a return trip to Star Trek on Monday. Maybe. Unless my plans get interferred with. Er, wait, how often do my weekends go according to actual plan?
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no subject
Date: 2009-05-15 07:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-15 11:11 pm (UTC)Well, not about that, anyway :-)
no subject
Date: 2009-05-15 07:44 pm (UTC)Imo, there's nothing emotional about bullying. It's a pack-mentality act to focus on another's perceived weakness and exploit it until they're driven out of the pack. If anything bullying is logical. I tend to think of it as a remnant from the days when kids weren't pushed into artificial social situations and hierarchies - schools & clubs - and stayed with their parents until they were old enough to fend for themselves. Childhood bullying's an instinct to home in on the runts and pick them off so there's more food and affection for the strongest. It also works in reverse if a group of the weaker ones turn on the biggest/strongest in the group - eliminating a perceived superior means if they have to pick each other off, they're fighting equals.
Just my thoughts, but if bullying is primal logic then that would indicate Vulcans are susceptible to other psycho-biology - which'd explain Pon Farr as a biological issue more than a sociological one.
I DON'T have any ST canon in my head other than bits of the series and films, so I can't say for sure. But DID Spock do the Academy before Starfleet in the original series/films canon? 'Cause I'm torn between Spock's canon diverting at the Kobayashi Maru hearing and there. If Spock, in both universes, told the Academy to die in a hole then it won't explain why Quinto!Spock's a ticking emotional timebomb - from the KM and he doesn't have time to get a lot of understanding in before he's chucked into a situation that sees full battle conditions and his planet and mother die.
I take the rule of thumb that we got Nimoy!Spock after he'd been at Starfleet a few years with space as a peaceful, happy place that the Enterprise is sent to explore - stress free, he's got time to become the ultimate in logical-cool. Otoh, Quinto!Spock is the formative, studious type who's chucked into space being a really REALLY shitty place, and trying so hard to be more-Vulcan-than-Vulcan and failing by the narrowest margins.
I also think that the lynch-pin to the Kirk-Spock friendship dynamic is the Kobayashi Maru and how it played out in both universes. So I'm a bit biased when it comes to separating the timeline point there. :-D
no subject
Date: 2009-05-15 11:22 pm (UTC)But a logical decision about *who* to bully does make a lot of sense as does the idea of the mob mentality being some kind of unconscious logical choice influenced by emotion.
Just my thoughts, but if bullying is primal logic then that would indicate Vulcans are susceptible to other psycho-biology - which'd explain Pon Farr as a biological issue more than a sociological one.
A biological issue does make sense in those circumstances, although I do wonder at the reasons why biology would evolve that far. If we assume that all Vulcans do have emotions and use logic as a method of to control and discipline those feelings then I cannot accept the theory (not sure if this is fanon or canon) that Pon Farr allows Vulcans as a species to continue by being the only time they mate. I'm sure that I've seen that idea hanging around at times. There is no logical reason not to express their emotions (love and desire) in a sexual way outside Pon Farr, although they would perhaps plan these things a little better than humans :-D
And....my point has given, wandered off and taken a nap somewhere. Sorry.
I take the rule of thumb that we got Nimoy!Spock after he'd been at Starfleet a few years with space as a peaceful, happy place that the Enterprise is sent to explore
That I totally have been assuming, although I might not have expressed it well :-)
I also think that the lynch-pin to the Kirk-Spock friendship dynamic is the Kobayashi Maru and how it played out in both universes. So I'm a bit biased when it comes to separating the timeline point there. :-D
:-D For me, I'm assuming that Spock's timeline deviated at the moment he met Kirk. The Jim in the original universe was in some ways a different character: he was trying to live up to his fathe rather than rebelling, he grew into his command naturally rather than having it thrust at him. Therefore from that moment when they meet, Quinto!Spock is experiencing and being influenced by a different sort of person. That's got to lead to some differences in the way that this Spock evolves compared to Spock Prime.
Um, possibly that was my long winded way of saying "Word!"?
no subject
Date: 2009-05-16 01:13 am (UTC)Bullying is all about having a competitive edge and beating the opposition, but it's really replacing a more directly fatal pass-time, it's like fencing is to duelling. The high a bully gets is pure adrenaline, that's why they do it again and again to the same set of victims. Occasionally there's the emotional satisfaction gained from convincing an adult that the victim is the bully (therefore receiving comfort/love as reward), but during the act itself there's nothing but the chemical rush.
But a logical decision about *who* to bully does make a lot of sense as does the idea of the mob mentality being some kind of unconscious logical choice influenced by emotion.
I think it's conscious. But I am one of those people who thinks something that's screaming for food/love at 6hrs old isn't going to grow out of that punish-reward cycle in 6 or 12 years. Especially not if they're chucked into a room with their peers and have to battle for attention because there's no defined pecking order.
A biological issue does make sense in those circumstances, although I do wonder at the reasons why biology would evolve that far.
That's assuming Pon Farr is an evolution, I think of it more as Vulcan Emotional Appendicitis. Interesting question I don't know and can't answer is: Do the Romulans have Pon Farr or did they take the 'fuckthatshit, when I'm horny - I'm horny!' blue pill?
although they would perhaps plan these things a little better than humans :-D
I want the ST09 Uhura/Spock fic. Sorry, but I can't see Uhura doing anything but grin like an idiot at the prospect of 24hrs of wild, insane, multi-position, crazy sex with her Nice Boy. And Kirk being all 'O.O' and demanding Spock pencil him in for his 35th birthday party. :-D
That I totally have been assuming, although I might not have expressed it well :-)
God, we really are on the same page. *passes the gin* This is most terrifying!
That's got to lead to some differences in the way that this Spock evolves compared to Spock Prime.
Yep, but I'm assuming their first 'meeting' was over the KM. And that the Vulcans worked in the background with the Starfleet lecturers (with a similar role by humans on Vulcan) as advisers:
1) So the Uhura/Spock situation is clarified and not a creepy!teacher thing.
2) Because I really hope Earth introduced fingerpainting and chocolate crispycakes to Vulcan before it went BANG.
I've also got it into my head that the KM itself went differently too. Shatner!Kirk never had to face it for real until Wrath of Khan, Pine!Kirk's been living in the shadow is its repercussions for his entire life. That'd give the latter a whole rack of reasons to fuck the system over and cover with the blase 'I don't like to lose' defence.
Um, possibly that was my long winded way of saying "Word!"?
Possibly, but this is great FUN! *arm flail* And I don't know a bloody thing about this subject! *panicked arm flail*
Spock
Date: 2009-05-15 10:26 pm (UTC)Anyway.... rambling.
Thanx for the invite!
Leoal
Re: Spock
Date: 2009-05-15 11:28 pm (UTC)That was something I was thinking of, but it got lost in the ramble. This is why I should review and think before I actually post the essay!
So he could end up quite the same anyways.
I think that a lot will depend on what happens next for Quinto!Spock. The Jim that Spock Prime was friends with had a different background and a different attitude to life because his father wasn't killed on the USS Kelvin. Kirk had a huge influence on Spock Prime and I've always interpreted that as affecting the way that Spock grew to accept his Vulcan and human heritage. The Spock that we see by Star Trek VI is much more relaxed - knowingly making wry funnies - and I've always attributed that in large part to his friendship with Kirk. I think Spock Prime does allude to that at times.
Quinto!Spock is going to have that close friendship but the man he is being influenced by is different. He's got more anger, more rebellion and Quinto!Spock is meeting and growing with a much less experienced Kirk. To me, that implies that there will be differences in the way that Quinto!Spock will evolve over the years.
Of course, the next movie could blow that entirely out of the water :-D This is why I like meta: we can speculate all we want, only to have the creators destroy all our illusions with each new bit of canon!
no subject
Date: 2009-05-16 01:26 am (UTC)As for his emotions being more obvious in this film; I did see this as a side-effect of him being younger. We've never seen such a young Spock before. There are some episodes of TOS where he shows quite a lot of emotion compared to what he showed later in the films.
Finally... I'm a firm believer in the "butterfly effect", so I see EVERYONE'S timeline as having deviated the moment the Romulan ship came back in time. We don't quite have an obvious point for Spock but something was different!