Stuff that I hope doesn't sound whiny
Oct. 1st, 2004 05:16 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
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kamilaa :-)
So the warning thing is still going around the LJs, even though it's finally quiet on tuna gate. It's been...interesting. I've seen a lot of interesting points, the odd derogatory comment (on both sides of the issue) and a lot of fascinating debate. I'm still sticking to my "I'd like to have some warnings available if I want to check them" position, but I can see and understand why so many writers feel that warnings are a courtesy rather a necessity. Writers should have control of the presentation of their fic on their own sites. Warn, don't warn; it's up to the writer. I'd prefer the warnings to be available, but it won't kill me if they aren't. Complying with archive/list policies on the subject is another matter - it's part of the deal you make when you sign up with the list or post your fic to the archive.
I'm wondering whether the difference in opinion stems largely from when people came into fandom. SG has always been primarily Internet-based and warnings are a hot button in SG fandom. A lot of the comments that I've seen complaining about readers who want to avoid certain things in their fic seem to justify it with the comment that warnings in zines were practically unheard of and you always took your chances with them. It often seems to be a matter of pride that people can read anything without allowing it to negatively affect them. I started out in Buffy fandom where warnings are heavily encouraged due to the number of teenagers who might stumble onto fic. It's Internet-based and most archives have policies on content and warnings. I then wandered into SG fandom which, again, is mainly Internet-based and heavily pro-warnings. I've always been able to choose my fic and avoid the things I'd rather not read in fanfic (the things I'll read in original fic are quite different - hmm) and it's quite stunning to read comments deriding that way of reading.
I think, for me, there's always been such a large volume of stuff out there that I used pairings, summaries and any warnings as guides to find things that I'll want to read. If I don't need to read certain things, I don't. I guess that I'm looking for different things in my fanfic, which is why I'm more careful about it (and a couple of my favourite books have several of the things that I'd usually avoid in fanfic). I'm not involved enough in other fandoms to judge how warnings are handled there and what the attitudes are. Most of the fic that I read in other fandoms has been found through recs and word of mouth rather than trawling the archives and personal sites.
A lot of people have said that they wished there were warnings for bad spelling, poor plotting, insane characterisation,beagles and general bad writing. That would be cool :-) Really, the only thing I'd like are warnings for certain strong content and that's a preference, not a "You must comply" demand because at the end of the day I'm both a reader and the only fic I have any control over is my own.
My usual tactic for avoiding bad fic is to read the first couple of paragraphs to see whether I'm going to get annoyed with spelling/grammar/formatting before committing to the HD and reading. That doesn't weed out all the crap writing, but it narrows it down a little and even if it's on the HD, I don't have a problem with giving up on a horrendous thing. I'll give up on a poor fanfic long before I'd give up on a book - this year I've failed to finish two books and lost count of the number of fics. In both cases, I gave up on the books because the writer's style grated on me and I really wish that I'd been able to tolerate it enough to finish. Grrrr.
Speaking of books...why didn't anyone tell me how good Lois McMaster Bujold is? I've been completely hooked for the past couple of weeks. I stumbled across her fantasy book (Curse of Chalion - very good) and am now going through her sci-fi stuff, which is bloody fantastic. I've even ordered a book from county reserve stock at my local library. Why yes, I am an ex-librarian who knows how to find books not available to ordinary mortals :-)
I also found a new (ish - 2003) David and Leigh Eddings book. Kind of a phsychological thriller with hints of other oddness. It hooked me into staying up all night reading it :-) Similar to Mary Higgins Clark plot-wise, but not really because they did things she'd never do. It was, however, strange to read Eddings trademark phrases coming out of the wrong characters' mouths.
And my fabulous father has a copy of Jonathan Strange that I will steal as soon as he finishes. Gotta love fathers with money who buy things I also want. Such as West Wing season 4 DVDs :-))
Research project and revision are progressing. Slowly, but progressing. Got one version of the program I'm writing for the project finished, complete with user interface and error handling, so I'm hopeful that I'm going to meet my deadlines. I will, however, have to work through this weekend *sigh* It's mostly so that I don't feel guilty when everyone is moving furniture and taking up carpets this weekend. They've all agreed that People With FMS Don't Do That (TM) and I can't argue too much because they'll just point out all the times I've nearly killed myself moving or lifting stuff that's too heavy. Guh. I guess I do need to be fit for my exam on the 13th. On Tuesday the carpet-fitters will be here and most of the house will be off-limits while they work. We decided that it was better to have almost the entire house re-carpeted at once and get it over with rather than doing it bit by bit and having the mess around for months. We're regretting the decision now that we've got to work out where the hell to put our stuff.
Mom wants to sell the books. Heathen.
kamilaa :-)So the warning thing is still going around the LJs, even though it's finally quiet on tuna gate. It's been...interesting. I've seen a lot of interesting points, the odd derogatory comment (on both sides of the issue) and a lot of fascinating debate. I'm still sticking to my "I'd like to have some warnings available if I want to check them" position, but I can see and understand why so many writers feel that warnings are a courtesy rather a necessity. Writers should have control of the presentation of their fic on their own sites. Warn, don't warn; it's up to the writer. I'd prefer the warnings to be available, but it won't kill me if they aren't. Complying with archive/list policies on the subject is another matter - it's part of the deal you make when you sign up with the list or post your fic to the archive.
I'm wondering whether the difference in opinion stems largely from when people came into fandom. SG has always been primarily Internet-based and warnings are a hot button in SG fandom. A lot of the comments that I've seen complaining about readers who want to avoid certain things in their fic seem to justify it with the comment that warnings in zines were practically unheard of and you always took your chances with them. It often seems to be a matter of pride that people can read anything without allowing it to negatively affect them. I started out in Buffy fandom where warnings are heavily encouraged due to the number of teenagers who might stumble onto fic. It's Internet-based and most archives have policies on content and warnings. I then wandered into SG fandom which, again, is mainly Internet-based and heavily pro-warnings. I've always been able to choose my fic and avoid the things I'd rather not read in fanfic (the things I'll read in original fic are quite different - hmm) and it's quite stunning to read comments deriding that way of reading.
I think, for me, there's always been such a large volume of stuff out there that I used pairings, summaries and any warnings as guides to find things that I'll want to read. If I don't need to read certain things, I don't. I guess that I'm looking for different things in my fanfic, which is why I'm more careful about it (and a couple of my favourite books have several of the things that I'd usually avoid in fanfic). I'm not involved enough in other fandoms to judge how warnings are handled there and what the attitudes are. Most of the fic that I read in other fandoms has been found through recs and word of mouth rather than trawling the archives and personal sites.
A lot of people have said that they wished there were warnings for bad spelling, poor plotting, insane characterisation,
My usual tactic for avoiding bad fic is to read the first couple of paragraphs to see whether I'm going to get annoyed with spelling/grammar/formatting before committing to the HD and reading. That doesn't weed out all the crap writing, but it narrows it down a little and even if it's on the HD, I don't have a problem with giving up on a horrendous thing. I'll give up on a poor fanfic long before I'd give up on a book - this year I've failed to finish two books and lost count of the number of fics. In both cases, I gave up on the books because the writer's style grated on me and I really wish that I'd been able to tolerate it enough to finish. Grrrr.
Speaking of books...why didn't anyone tell me how good Lois McMaster Bujold is? I've been completely hooked for the past couple of weeks. I stumbled across her fantasy book (Curse of Chalion - very good) and am now going through her sci-fi stuff, which is bloody fantastic. I've even ordered a book from county reserve stock at my local library. Why yes, I am an ex-librarian who knows how to find books not available to ordinary mortals :-)
I also found a new (ish - 2003) David and Leigh Eddings book. Kind of a phsychological thriller with hints of other oddness. It hooked me into staying up all night reading it :-) Similar to Mary Higgins Clark plot-wise, but not really because they did things she'd never do. It was, however, strange to read Eddings trademark phrases coming out of the wrong characters' mouths.
And my fabulous father has a copy of Jonathan Strange that I will steal as soon as he finishes. Gotta love fathers with money who buy things I also want. Such as West Wing season 4 DVDs :-))
Research project and revision are progressing. Slowly, but progressing. Got one version of the program I'm writing for the project finished, complete with user interface and error handling, so I'm hopeful that I'm going to meet my deadlines. I will, however, have to work through this weekend *sigh* It's mostly so that I don't feel guilty when everyone is moving furniture and taking up carpets this weekend. They've all agreed that People With FMS Don't Do That (TM) and I can't argue too much because they'll just point out all the times I've nearly killed myself moving or lifting stuff that's too heavy. Guh. I guess I do need to be fit for my exam on the 13th. On Tuesday the carpet-fitters will be here and most of the house will be off-limits while they work. We decided that it was better to have almost the entire house re-carpeted at once and get it over with rather than doing it bit by bit and having the mess around for months. We're regretting the decision now that we've got to work out where the hell to put our stuff.
Mom wants to sell the books. Heathen.
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no subject
Date: 2004-10-01 06:14 pm (UTC)It often seems to be a matter of pride that people can read anything without allowing it to negatively affect them.
I wouldn't say that it has much to do with pride at all, for me personally. Many stories impact me emotionally. However, ten minutes after I finish them, I'm back to doing things in RL. I may still be thinking about a story, but it's not going to have a lasting impact on my life.
You know, my thing is, warnings are just a matter of personal preference. I don't put people down for wanting them; I provide them to readers when I think most readers would prefer them (for instance, on a story where there's character death). I understand the need for them. When I start to get hot, it's not because of the issue re warning/not warning. Instead, it's usually because someone implies the writer is at fault for the reader's distress after they read a story. This, as you probably already know, is not cool with me at all.
Most of the time, in fandom, my opinion about any given subject is very much YMMV. I'm completely fine with whatever Jane Fan likes, or wants to do, or with what Jane Fan prefers -- as long as Jane Fan doesn't try to make me do it, too, or blame other fans for things that are a matter of personal responsibility. :)
no subject
Date: 2004-10-02 01:48 pm (UTC)At the end of the day, that's the way things should be for everyone. Sadly, that's not always the case.
My father became a Quaker a few years ago and one of the things that I've really grown to admire about him (and the Quakers in general) is a firm belief in tolerance and acceptance of everyone. They don't try to make everyone convert to their beliefs - pushing their ideas onto others is one of their big no-nos. It's a concept that I love and I'm trying hard to live up to as well. Not that it's always easy...
no subject
Date: 2004-10-01 10:16 pm (UTC)I'm thrilled you liked Kamil's icons. She's so very good.
Will go read the rest of the post now.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-02 01:52 pm (UTC):-))) I'd go with cool, but then I'm debating whether to call my (hypothetical future cat that I can't have until I've emigrated, grr) cat Polgara or Kerowyn :-)
Yup, I'm an Eddings fan. I've not been in love with their latest books, but I was hooked by the Belgariad and the Mallorean (both sets now look rather battered and Belgarath the Sorcerer is starting to be a loose-leaf version) and I reread the Ellenim and the Tamuli at the end of last year. Good writers :-)
And Kamil does lovely icons :-)
no subject
Date: 2004-10-01 10:31 pm (UTC)That occurred to me as well. Warnings weren't a big deal in TPM (except for those who wanted to be warned for *Qui-Gon's* death, and in HL it wasn't an issue, but I suspect that is because I was such a late comer to the fandom. Those issues had been resolved, and most of the knock-down drag 'em outs over any number of issues had already been fought. Those battles had separated the wheat from the chaff, and the chaff had gone off to form their own list(s). Mostly they went to OnlyDuncanMethos, which I swear is the AlphaGate of HL fandom. The similarities are frightening.
I'm looking for different things in my fanfic
I think this is actually the biggest argument in favor of warnings. People read fanfic for different reasons than they read original fic and in a different way. I wasn't about to make that argument, though, not when I'd put so much effort into the responsibility argument. I didn't think nuance would play well with that crowd.
I do the first few paragraph thing, too, and I'm always prepared to back out of a fic at any point. But that's probably because I read way too much online porn. /weg/
no subject
Date: 2004-10-02 02:05 pm (UTC)::boggle::
Mostly they went to OnlyDuncanMethos, which I swear is the AlphaGate of HL fandom
::boggle:: There's more than one tuna gate-alike? ::boggle::
People read fanfic for different reasons than they read original fic and in a different way.
::nods:: The books on my shelves are quite different from the fanfic that I read. Things that I'm happy to read in original fic would usually be avoided in fanfic and I'm willing to let things pass in fanfic that would have me glaring and muttering at a book.
I didn't think nuance would play well with that crowd.
Sadly, many of the tuna gate members have difficulty with the concept of subtelty or nuances. Just look at the failure to understand the difference between 'Warnings withheld' as an option and no warnings. Guh.
I do the first few paragraph thing, too, and I'm always prepared to back out of a fic at any point. But that's probably because I read way too much online porn. /weg/
*snort* And I thought you were such and innocent...